“I’m working with people who have worked with these ideas for 30 years, for example now in the US, coming to me and saying, “I’m completely disillusioned” and then feeling that disillusionment as a problem.  I generally say disillusionment is not a problem, it’s a good thing.  It’s disillusion and you don’t want to be believing in an illusion.  How do we see this as a productive moment?”